The world's second-most populous country, the sixth-biggest in terms of land mass, and home to one of the largest pools of engineering talent. Yet, India remains a global pygmy, with just 1 per cent share of the world trade. The good news: things are changing, and for the better. The "land of snake charmers" has given way to a land of code jocks; Indian generics are flying off shop shelves in the US; a Mercedes or a Ford actually sports at least something Indian under the bonnet; and a cheaper, more effective back-office in Gurgaon is just a phone call away from Georgia. Slowly, but surely, India is going global.

The bad news: its pace sucks. Primarily because there is no national blueprint for globalisation. A Ranbaxy or an i-flex happens because of the dreams of a few. Can a billion people be taught to dream and execute on their dreams? Possibly not. But can we create, first, a need and then an agenda for globalisation? Absolutely. It is with this objective in mind that BT decided to launch a series on "Taking India Global". Periodically, BT will bring together industry thought-leaders to brainstorm on issues central to globalisation. We kick off the series with a debate on Brand India-as seen by US, the Indians, and them-everybody else outside the country. Does it exist? Do we need one at all? What should it be about? And who is responsible for creating it-the government, industry, individual companies, or simply individuals?

Exploring and seeking answers to these questions are two well-known, but diverse, personalities. Infosys' Chief Mentor, N.R. Narayana Murthy, who has built a global it services brand in Infosys, and Santosh Desai, President of McCann Erickson India, a strategic thinker and a man who helps companies create powerful brands. The face-off moderator: BT's Associate Editor, Vidya Viswanathan. Welcome to the first face-off on Taking India Global:

BT: Mr. Murthy do you think India needs branding?

N.R. NARAYANA MURTHY: Professor Michael Porter says that it is the individual firms that compete, not nations. But then that is in a different context. He is talking about developed nations. If you look at a developing country scenario, I think there is a need for branding the country in addition to individual firms competing or individual firms branding. Simply because if you want to enhance our exports, if you want to become more competitive in the world economy, we should be attracting a lot of decision-makers to this country. And to do that, obviously you have to create a higher level of comfort, a greater level of trust in the country.

"Our challenge is to make sure that from the moment people arrive in India, as soon as they alight from the plane to the time they go back, they have positive experiences"

SANTOSH DESAI: I agree with that. The reality is that the world sees any enterprise, any country through a certain filter. It is for us to acknowledge that reality and work with that reality and perhaps shape it to the extent possible. It makes sense to manage it actively rather than letting it get managed by default.

MURTHY: You raised a very important point-that we already have a filter. But our challenge is to change the filter. Take our tourist arrival figures and compare them with those of smaller nations in our own region like Indonesia, Thailand-we still have a very small figure. If you want to take exports from 11 per cent of GDP to 30 per cent of GDP, which I think is a comfortable figure, then we have to change the profile of tourists. For example, how nice it would be if the President of the US or the Chairman of Sony or GE said, "I want to vacation in India." I think that is the challenge we have.

BT: How do we work out what is brand India?

MURTHY: A brand is a trust mark. It is something that raises your confidence in that brand. Our challenge is to make sure that from the moment any of these people arrive in India, as soon as they alight from the plane to the time they go back, they have positive experiences. Experiences that make them commit themselves, their corporations to India. Create a level of comfort in them that they leave a part of their heart in India. When someone talks to them about India, they should say, "Ah! That is a great country, you should go there and invest there, you should have a holiday there..."

Indians are very nice people, very courteous people. There is no doubt at all. But a few experiences like an escalator not working, a dilapidated, ramshackle taxi at the airport or a taxi driver taking someone for a ride are the irritants that create doubts in the visitor's mind. But these are very minor things. It is not very difficult to attack these things.

DESAI: I think it is absolutely right. The most important thing in a brand is to establish that level of trust and comfort, that sense of belief, which is based on a positive emotional stake in India and Indians. There are certain deliverables, which are necessary for any progress, without which any conversation becomes meaningless.

BT: You mean we need good airports first.

"The most important thing in a brand is to establish that level of trust and comfort, that sense of belief, which is based on a positive emotional stake in India and Indians"

DESAI: Yes. It is staggering to see that it is so far down in our agenda. It's the first impression...So it's the first thing to start on. The second order question is; What do we characterise Brand India as? Why does mankind need India? India as a brand has to be a long-term player of some power with some legitimate stakes. What does it bring to the table? Is it just numbers-a large market and technological capability?

MURTHY: I always say branding is all about doing unusual things. By doing unusual things, you get people to write about you. You don't create a brand by just advertising except in the case of a commodity. But you sustain a brand by advertising. After you create a brand, like the Singapore girl, you sustain it with advertising. But if you want to create a brand in a space that is so cluttered, you have to do unusual things. Like Santosh says, 'Would people remember India? Would people miss India? Would people want to go back a second time to India? Would people want to do business with India on a continued basis?'

For example, branding could be this-India is a nation of courteous, trustworthy people who produce excellent products and services for the global market. Trustworthy and courteous are very very important attributes, be it a tourist or a buyer. On the other hand, 'these people produce excellent products and services' says whether you buy software from India or go on a holiday to India, you will have a great experience. Great restaurants, great places to go, great hotels...I think that to me is the answer.

BT: Mr Murthy, are you talking about this as it is now or what it should be...

MURTHY: What it should be...

BT: You are saying first you set these things right. You are saying in some ways, replicate the Infosys campuses on a larger scale...

MURTHY: No, no. I don't want to be so condescending. Branding always starts with a very clear positioning. When we founded Infosys, right from day one, I said, 'Infosys will be the most respected company'. I didn't say Infosys would be the largest. I didn't say Infosys would be the most profitable. Those are all things that are determined by the market, by the competition. But being the most respected company depended more or less on what we did within Infosys. Similarly, what I want to say is you need to start with some clear objective.

DESAI: If we look at the Infosys example, while there was a clear goal, that goal came from a clear understanding of what you had to begin with-a value system, a desire. It came from an existing reality. It was ambitious, but was realistic ambition. In a similar sense, if we have to examine the Indian reality, what kind of goal do we want to set? A brand is not an external face, but the external manifestation of an internal reality. (Are courtesy, trustworthiness and excellence a part of this reality today?-Ed.). Our reality is currently a little far from that. It could be argued that courtesy is very often something that may not be apparent at first glance. And that order and discipline do not perhaps come naturally to us. Is there a case for saying that let us recognise the reality as it exists and find a way to re-characterise that reality? So that it is positive, it is strong and it is something we can reach. It's not perhaps a universal template that all emerging nations want to reach; it's a specific destination that India, given all its strengths, weaknesses and idiosyncrasies, is in a position to reach. If the image of India was historically that of being complex and stagnant, is it possible to re-characterise that in today's context as vibrant and energetic? That accounts for some of the chaos in India, but allows it to be seen in a positive light.

"If 20 million people visit and spend $1,000 per visit, it is $20 billion on just one experiment! Give me that opportunity, give me that executive power, I'll make it happen"

MURTHY: We have to be ambitious but realistic, no doubt at all. To me we can transform any situation. Let me give you a simple example. If we were to construct a six-lane highway between Delhi and Agra, it's 120 miles, it'll cost a couple of million dollars per mile. So you are looking at $240 million (Rs 1,104 crore). And if you were to take strong steps to get dirt out of that place and clean the Yamuna around that, you're looking at $300 million (Rs 1,380 crore). I can tell you if you did that, you can get $3 billion (Rs 13,800 crore) of tourism every year! People would be ready just to come to the Taj Mahal. If you say, 'This is where you should have your honeymoon', build three or four world-class hotels. What better experience than a just-married couple getting photographed in front of the Taj and then moving to the honeymoon suite. I mean this can be done. But it requires aspiration; it requires a mindset that says, "We will do it!"

BT: We were talking about branding, internal and external. If we are able to, in some sense, bring pride, which is also a part of internal branding, which you did at Infosys, how do you go about that?

MURTHY: You know, at Infosys, we decided right in the beginning that we want to be the most respected. How do we translate it into something actionable? It's all very good to talk about something nebulous, so we said we would lead by example. That's why in this company the leaders come to office before others. Number two: whatever sacrifices youngsters are asked to make, senior people have made first. If we have to say in this country, we have to be courteous and trustworthy people who produce world class products and services, every one of our leaders-corporate leaders, political leaders, professors, bureaucrats-will have to consciously practice that. That is if I say I'll do something for you no matter what happens, I'll make sure I'll deliver it to your satisfaction.

BT: You believe that the entire country's mindset can be changed like that?

DESAI: My concern is just that. To make it happen in a more controlled environment, that is also not easy, but we've seen that it's happening. But for it to really seep down the current political system, for it to transform... In a brand experience you cannot lie, wherever you slip, you're found out. And, therefore, that is a good starting point.

BT: But he was saying we have the Taj...

DESAI: The reality is that we were perilously close to a heritage corridor project at the Taj. The question is, in a systemic sense, if you are trying to manage and influence a system, it must take into account the reality on the ground.

BT: Can media be used to instill that?

DESAI: It's the other way round. Branding and media get determined by the reality on the ground.

BT: You are saying take the situation today. The chaos, for example, and build it as a positive experience of energy...

"Seeing opportunities in the morass is in many ways the starting point. One of the opportunities is not so much building Brand India, but building Indian brands"

DESAI: No, I'm saying let's take note of the reality of today and see how we can push that reality forward. In the reality of today there is a certain lack of discipline, a lack of alignment, there are forces pulling in contrary direction. Is there a brand that is possible from this reality?

MURTHY: Let's come back to the Taj. If we were to position it, say 'Wedding anniversary at the Taj. An unbelievable experience!' There are about 200 million couples in the developed nations. If 10 per cent were to be persuaded to spend their wedding anniversary at Taj, two nights, three nights...my God! You would attract 20 million people just to the Taj. Can you imagine the power of that? How much money they will spend! It's all in how much we can think. We need $300-350 million (Rs 1,580-1,610 crore), we can take it from the World Bank as a loan, that's no big deal. We can take it as a 20-year loan. If 20 million people visit and spend about $1,000 (Rs 46,000) per visit, it is $20 billion (Rs 92,000 crore) on just one experiment! Give me that opportunity, give me that executive power, I'll make it happen.

BT: How does one change the mindset?

MURTHY: Most people see the context as a constraint. Leaders see them as opportunities. We need to get people who see opportunities in that morass. That is the challenge. Do we have leaders?

This question of reality and all, let me give you an example. In just eight days in 1991, Narasimha Rao, Manmohan Singh, P. Chidambaram, Montek Singh Ahluwalia, N.K. Singh and Jairam Ramesh and a few others thought out and brought about an extraordinary change in this country-economic reforms. At one point of time, we did not have forex for 15 days! All my friends used to tell me we couldn't have current account convertibility because of various reasons. But look at it today. We can bring about seminal changes in the country as long as we do not go into an endless debate. In other words, we have to focus on execution rather than on articulation.

DESAI: Actually that point about seeing opportunities in the morass is in many ways the starting point. For instance, one of the opportunities for me is not so much building brand India, but building Indian brands. In something as staggering as tea, we do not have an Indian brand. It defies any understanding. Darjeeling is a description and there are other international companies who own the brand. We don't have an international tea brand.

Another huge opportunity in the area of brands is our popular culture industry. Look at American brands, Interbrand or any other listing. Take away Hollywood, music and television, and most of their brands would collapse. Their brands have been created by a powerful cultural machine. In a bbc programme, an ex-foreign secretary of India said India is the world's second largest 'soft' power after the US. Not necessarily in terms of economic indices, but in the influence that you can potentially exercise in the way the world thinks.

MURTHY: You talked about tea...On Lufthansa you see Colombian coffee not Indian coffee. Again to me, it is the same solution. If you want to create trust, make trustworthy, respected people say good things about your product. If you can get celebrities, whether it is Madonna, Britney Spears, Tiger Woods or Tony Blair...if 10 of them said good things about India in prime time TV, or world-class newspapers, if you were to see advertisements with them saying "I drink Darjeeling Tea". Of course, follow it up. Make sure that you process it well, it is packaged well, it is delivered to the shelves on time.

DESAI: Too much of the debate gets seen from Indian eyes instead of seeing from a consumer's perspective. To understand what the world needs, to understand their sensibilities, to understand the competition from their eyes. We need to be a little more part of the world. Otherwise, it is the Festival of India syndrome-we believe we are marketing. The reason why a Britney Spears would come to India lies in the combination that India offers that is unique. A combination of a sense of history with a modern access.

MURTHY: The Taj is unique. I was in the UK when Prince Charles and Princess Diana came to India. The day the picture of Diana alone in front of the Taj was printed in newspapers across the world, I heard everyone say 'What a tragedy that she is alone in front of the mounment of love'. I'm deliberately taking tourism, because that is easy to solve. It is not rocket science.

BT: How do we raise the aspirations of the country? That is internal branding, right? If I valued something, I would not dirty it.

MURTHY: You see it is all about leadership. Raising aspirations is the first challenge, responsibility of a leader. Making people more confident, more hopeful, more enthusiastic. These are the challenges of a leader. At the highest level, all the leaders, corporates, bureaucrats, every one of us takes an oath that we will lead by example. And that means we have to aspire to higher things, show alacrity, speed and creativity in everything. Whatever we do we have to excel so that other people believe anything can be done. Taking the Taj as an example....

BT: You are bitten by the Taj bug aren't you....

MURTHY: You don't understand. We are sitting on at least a $10 billion (Rs 46,000 crore) opportunity. If they create a Taj Authority, obviously not within the government, that should include the Delhi airport, mind you (or create a new airport in Agra). That organisation should have full executive authority overriding the authority of the state. Of course, they must take whatever action, they take with compassion, courtesy and decency. For example, if they dislocate people, they should find a good way of relocating them. They should not line their pockets.

DESAI: Again taking the Taj example, instead of waiting for a Brand India, perhaps start branding Kerala and Rajasthan, brand Taj Mahal, brand Bangalore. Let's demonstrate change and that is possible.

MURTHY: Let me explain to you again why I took the Taj example. Kerala and Rajasthan compete with the Phukets of the world. They can keep competing. Nothing can compete with the Taj. As I said, spending the wedding anniversary at the Taj. What else can you compare it with?